If a 30 minute Skype call with Michelle Creber (Voice of Apple Bloom) and fandom musician BlackGryph0n is your life's dream, you're in luck! The popular pairing is now offering 30 minute Skype sessions for the low, low price of One Hundred United States Dollars. You can purchase these sessions through the Creber, Brown & Company online store (We LOVE the domain name, "BuyMyMerch.com").
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| Random and non-implicational reminder he sits on beds with underage girls |
As tweets blazed across bronytwitter announcing this INCREDIBLE offer, several bronies voiced their wide warm approval for two brony celebrities charging bronies to talk to them.
https://t.co/notMNoZZSc
isn't this kinda being a sell out?
You make money from your content.. talking to your fans should be a gesture back
— PJ/Laser (@masterpj55) December 1, 2015
Between this and the $20 autographs, is anyone still left with the illusion that @BlackGryph0n is a humble brony? https://t.co/fHejFCb0Uc
— Silver Eagle (@SilverEaglePVL) December 1, 2015
@masterpj55 I have a bigger problem with it ruining the point of talking with someone when you're only talking to them cause they paid you.
— Zeta Pony (@ZetaPony) December 2, 2015
@masterpj55 ... this stinks of "worship me!". "Skype is my temple, you must provide a token of your gratitude for being in my presence!"
— Canadian Desperado (@DesperadoBrony) December 2, 2015
@masterpj55 yeah that is much of sellout, in my opinion at least and yeah you shouldnt have to pay to talk to him
— Sasha❥ (@mixipony) December 1, 2015
Dubstep EDM Band "DJ Silva Hound" even sung his praises of this new service
@MoniqueCreber I think you and I both know VERY well that bronies are willing to spend a lot of money for ANYTHING close to the ponies.
— Silva Hound (@SilvaHound) December 2, 2015I fucking can't. $100 to skype. What the actual fuck.
— Kinfe Pnoy (@KnifePony) December 2, 2015
@Dusty_Kat @SilverEaglePVL @masterpj55 We'll teach whatever people want! But what people need to realize is that this is my managers store.
— Black Gryph0n (@BlackGryph0n) December 2, 2015
@SilverEaglePVL So it's OK for everyone else to offer their professional services but not Gabe, even though he gets hundreds of requests?
— Monique Creber (@MoniqueCreber) December 2, 2015
Remember, they're professional brony celebrities
There's not much more we can say about this fantastic opportunity to talk with our fandom's favorite Dolores & Humbert pairing. Let us know how excited you are to pay a lot of money to talk to a couple brony celebrities in the comments below!
The sad thing is that you just know someone's going to buy this.
ReplyDeleteYeah, her name is Nora, and she needs to sit down for 5 minutes.
DeleteAnd people wonder why he (and, by extension, the Michelle Creber and her whole nutjob family) isn't invited to more cons. The greed is astounding.
ReplyDeleteActually, they are invited all the time because Monique is create at sweetening deals, and no matter how far Gaybe and the Creepers go to sell-out, the plebian bronies eat their shit up, they still fill rooms and get massive autograph lines, and convention organizers LOVE their "professionalism"
DeleteNot the con organizers I talk to. More like, they put up with shark-like ways because the audience eats it up and does want to see Michelle & Gabe. A list of where con guests rank by popularity with con goers vs. popularity with the organizers would probably be verrrrrrrry interesting, and very different.
DeleteI have direct experience with the Crebers as a con staffer in charge of organizing events and liasing with guests, and calling the Crebers 'professional' is a gross overstatement. Control freaks, more like.
DeleteHi. I'm currently looking into the relationship between fans and their fandoms. If you and 1/DEC/2015/ 21:23 wouldn't mind having a quick chat with me? I could use your help. Especially as I am also looking at volunteering for a pony con next year.
DeleteIt will be in the strictest confidence, and it's at this temporary email address which I'll shut down after the conversation. Don't worry. I know it looks a bit shady, but I can't give my real name out on the internet for privacy reasons, and neither can you, but that's fine. I' protect my sources anyway.
contacttemporaryaddress@opentrash.com
I'll check back every couple of hours for the next 24.
AND HN YOU ARE BEING SHITMONGERS. KNIGHTY IS DOING YOUR JOB FOR YOU AS JOURNALISTS AND HAVING A CONSTRUCTIVE CHAT WITH BLACKIE.
Shame on you Capper. You need to get back from Korea right now and see what;s happened to your site. To hell with the Kim family's cartel deal!
^^^ stop being butthurt and take it like the whore you are
DeleteI feel like people are complaining about the wrong thing here. "Selling out"? "Do it for your fans"? That's bs. If people want to pay for a service, then it's worth that amount, however stupid it may be. Everyone wants to scream "sell out" without knowing what selling out even is. The problem is that this ISN'T for professional advice. For a start, Michelle is too young to seriously give advice on the things offered and it straight up says "or just have fun!" at the end. Hardly a professional service. And as for Gabe hiding behind "muh manager"... That's really transparent, unless I'm somehow misinterpreting the point. Just own up to wanting to make money and I'd have more respect, if only for the desire to make money and not for the job itself.
ReplyDeleteSlow claps to standing ovation for you Knighty now fix the upvote/downvote system on fimfiction like it was then we're cool
DeleteI agree, for $200 an hour I'd want some well crafted training. Like damn, think about all the *cough* professionals out there that charge hourly rates. Instructors, teachers, lawyers, sex lines... Ok, maybe just really specialized sex lines. How many of them charge $200 per hour for their services? BG if you're reading the comments, if you want to charge fans to talk to you on the basis you're teaching them something that's not a bad idea. But you're neither experienced enough or famous enough (seriously, youtube famous doesn't qualify these days unless you're PewDePie levels of famous) to charge anywhere close to that.
DeleteOh, but wait, maybe they just want to talk to you for fun. Can't put a value on fan interaction, right? Except for $100 they can buy a three day pass at almost any con you attend as a guest, and for $200 or less most brony cons will give you a sponsor badge, which can include extra time to talk to VIPs. So any panel time you have (minimum 1 hour panels) and VIP parties/concerts you attend (1-2 hours, right? Sorry, I don't go to cons loaded, I just leave like that~) are far more of a deal then your Skype rate. Plus they can see you in person.
In closing, I can see why your manager wanted you to do this: If you charge celebrity prices and some people accept them, overtime people will just assume that you're popular/talented enough to be worth that price. But at the moment there is a clear backlash from the fandom and even the youtube community. An overwhelming amount of people are disagreeing with this, with reactions ranging from "You're charging too much" to "FUCKING SELLOUT". Some people are even rejecting you as a musician when they were originally your fans. You know, the same fans that paid extra for your convention concerts and autographs. Who knows how long the backlash will last. At this rate, unless you change something I don't think this is going to be worth the returns. BG, if you change your rates feel free to email HN letting us know. Otherwise, well... the fandom has been going for 5 years strong now, and throughout my time in it, it seems like the community has a much better memory of the drama versus successes.
I have read all of this actually… From the twitter backlash to the HN comments & what I have to say is this:
DeleteWhat is being offered is what has been requested many times by many people. Because of these requests, we decided to make a webstore & populate it with the things people wanted to buy. We aren't simply offering a chance to chat, we are offering a half hour of time dedicated to whatever the caller wants. Be that singing lessons, voiceover information, consultations, etc. (the $100 rate was decided upon because by the time all parties involved are payed, Michelle & I each make about $30.) However, even if we WERE only offering a Skype chat, & somehow made $100 off of it, I personally don't believe people should concern themselves with what we decide to offer on our own website. We aren't forcing anyone to buy anything. If you don't want it, don't buy it, but if you do want it, isn't it nice to have the option?
Regarding experience, I have been performing professionally around the world for many years. I've sung in multiple countries, in multiple languages, for millions of people collectively. Just because I became involved with the MLP fandom for fun, doesn't mean I didn't have any professional experience beforehand. The only difference between then & now is that when I was in the military, I could afford to do these things for free because they were my hobbies. The Navy payed my bills & I made my own decisions based on that financial freedom (I.E. no charge for music downloads). But now my hobbies have become my job. Now I have an agent, a manager, & a financial adviser who all take a cut of my paycheck. Any time I book a voiceover gig, record vocals for a show, sell a CD, or perform in a concert, my paycheck is divided up among myself & everyone else involved in helping me get that gig. They all rely on me just as much as I rely on them, therefor they all get a say in what I write, film, upload, produce & sell. It's not just my career anymore, it's theirs too. The entertainment industry has always worked like this, & I'm no exception. As soon as you start paying other people, you sacrifice some of your control. You charge for things because if you don't, you go broke.
But from what I've seen, the issue people have with me isn't that they don't understand how the industry works. If I read between the lines, the issue people have is that, put simply; "a Brony is trying to be a Voice Actor". Like somehow being a fan of MLP means that I am not qualified to be a professional. That I'm below the holy "VA's" who were born to do this for a living…
The reality is, this is my job now. I'm not being arrogant or presumptuous when I say that, I'm being honest. I'm a client of Caroline Young, I'm a Canadian landed immigrant, I do voices & songs for cartoons. I'm a voice actor.
I still love the fandom, I still enjoy the show, & I still do music for the community among my other work, but my job has changed. I'm no longer a sailor producing music & animations on the side for fun. I'm a voice actor & performer who has to book auditions & create/sell content or I can't pay my rent. It's the nature of the job.
Bottom line is: I'm just trying to make a living in a new & challenging career. I don't think I'm special. I don't think I'm entitled to anything, & I certainly don't think I'm perfect or that I don't make mistakes. Honestly, I'm probably making one right now; because despite trying to be as candid & honest as possible, I'm certain this response is going to be misconstrued & picked apart by anyone who wants to get some dirt on me. Let's face it, to most people in this community, I'm an MLP fan who started working with MLP staff. People are gonna hate me for that, & unfortunately there's not much I can do about it. All I can do is try to explain myself & offer some perspective on my situation. I hope you'll take the time to read this & consider my points. Thanks.
DeleteBut the bottom line is you also have a choice. You chose to have a manager. Therefore you have to accept criticism for things you have agreed to do. Of course, the entertainment business is hard and unforgiving but that doesn't mean you don't have personal responsibility for the things you do. I don't think any person (who's not a manchild with no job) is bemoaning you or anyone for offering a professional service ( $200/hr can be pretty reasonable and typical for lessons for various things ) but the inclusion of Michelle is just not appropriate here. As I said, she is straight up too young. Nobody in their right mind would pay a 16 year old $200/hr for any kind of professional advice because however talented she is, she's too young. That's why the whole thing feels nefarious to me, as if she's just there because it's an easy way to attract bronies with flushed wallets. Doesn't it feel a bit weird to to have a 16 year old girl offering the chance to talk to her for $100? I realise conventions are similar in that regard but I also have an issue with those so...
DeleteIf you want to offer a professional service, and I'm sure you have plenty of professional advice to give considering your talent, I would consider dropping Michelle from the package and making it more clear the specific professional advice that you will be giving, not just "or have some fun".
For the record I also respect you more for responding and being "candid & honest" rather than ignoring any criticism, which I know is hard because most complaints are usually misinformed and garbage. I should know, I get enough of them myself and have a hard time ignoring them.
DeleteYes she can give me some advice ( ･ิω･ิ)( ･ิω･ิ)
Delete@BlackGryphon
DeleteI understand your desire to expand into the field of coaching, consulting and tutoring. It's a direction I want to take myself, however I don't agree with what you say with regards to how you are perceiving the reaction from the community.
If you are looking to provide professional services and bringing them to market for individual clients on a one-to-one basis, you need to have a far more structured system in place, not only for the benefit of the customer, but for your own sake. Charging a flat $100 is lazy, and also means you're oversimplying, meaning some will gain more out of the experience than others, which is a path you don't want to go down.
Agencies, consultants and tutors alike all have a structured tier system in place, completely modular, so that a quote and invoice can be brought up depending on what the customer wants to purchase for the session. Furthermore, beyond basic critique, nobody is going to get ANYTHING from a single session. Improvement and development is only gained through a longer period of regular sessions to reinforce what is taught, either through direct feedback or a set curriculum.
I know it seems like a lot, and fact be, it fucking is. Putting $100 on the front and saying "It can be whatever!" isn't good enough, it's misrepresenting what you offer, and you're honestly setting yourself up to leave a lot of people either disappointed, given false confidence in their ability. and overall genuinely far less than they would from seeking a tutor to teach them on a weekly or fortnightly basis.
You fully admit that some people may pay the money just to hang with you and co, and whether or not that is worth it is down to the buyer, which I agree with. I just think a little more care in presentation and structure should be taken to ensure that what you promise can be truly delivered.
You only make $30 out of the $100 an hour call? Dude, you're being scammed. You need a new manager if they're taking fucking 40% of your profit.
DeleteHe's just another ho working under a pimp.
DeleteOnly $60 an hour each on Skype.... The horrors.
DeleteApparently it's your duty to chat 1-on-1 at length on Skype with 'fans' for free - hope you have plenty of time!
DeleteMany other stars do this "pay to chat with us" thing nowadays at numerous levels of 'famousness' as it's another way they can pay the bills in between the short times they're hired for actual roles. It's why they also turn up to conventions - I'm sure some probably genuinely love the fans and would turn up anyway (though when you look at how much abuse they get you have to wonder how and why. Peter New recently had to put up with some drooling idiot following him into the bathroom and taking pictures of him having a piss, and ended up questioning whether it's worth the harrassment) but they are generally paid to attend and do so because they need to put food on the table. This goes for Star Trek conventions and everything else.
It's kind of ironic that the same people accusing them of being full of themselves, are also basically saying "I'm a fan so you should worship me and give me free attention".
One has to wonder how many of those also watch the show illegally.
Of course, I'm most likely to just be dismissed as a "white knight" or shill on here..
I was going to attach my name to this, but I'll keep it Anonymous I guess.
DeleteGenerally speaking, Gabe, when people charge money for a service, there are specifics involved. People know exactly what they're paying for and what they'll get... Charging a set rate for "whatever you want to talk about" just feels lazy and uninspired, which is why so many people are crying "extortion!"
Constructive criticism/suggestions:
$100 - For a 30 minute long Q&A session with Michelle & Gabe
$50 - 1 singing lesson with Gabe
$200 - for 5
etc. etc. Not to say there wouldn't be objections to a system like this, but it looks a lot less suspicious than "$100 for whatever."
... and as far as bombshells go? Here's the real elephant in the room: Monique is not doing you any favors. You, as a brand, as an entity - you can survive without the Crebers, in fact I would argue you would THRIVE without them. They, on the other hand, NEED you. Their act is nothing without you. They lured you in with horsefame back when people still gave a damn, back when you didn't know any better, and now they're keeping you there, whispering insidious half-truths into your ears.
Sure, you can argue that Monique and Michael "know what they're doing" because they were "in the business" in some enigmatic capacity 20 years ago, but any industry professional will tell you that the "The business" now is not what it was 20, even 10 years ago. It's a classic case of the blind leading the blind.
I know as a professional in your industry it can be really hard to 'burn a bridge' as it were, but in this case your career would be better served by having a REAL agent, and a REAL manager who doesn't have a conflict of interest. You are never going to thrive under the management of a middle-aged mom who's first priority is her daughter's career. Yours will always be secondary, no matter what she says.
You've got more than enough talent to have a stunning solo career completely separate from horse nonsense, now all you need is the courage to know when it's time to jump ship.
ByMyBook.com/BlackGreedph0n
ReplyDeletethat is all
Blackgryph0n: "hey you, give me a hundred in U.S dollars"
ReplyDeleteBrony: "Why?"
Blackgryph0n: "Because you spoke to me!!!"
Brony: ".........!!!"
wow no wonder people stay away from this fandom
ReplyDeleteAll the butthurt is so strong it stinks of tumblr in here
Michelle Creber is a staff member of the show and as such can command whatever prices she wants.
ReplyDeleteBlackgryph0n is worth it because ...
...
...?
He's also a staff member of the show, recently. As a back choir singer.
DeleteSo you have to be a VA on MLP specifically for your time to be worth anything to anybody?
DeleteI wasn't informed.. I'll take my name off the offer immediately!
I'm sorry you take what I said that way: I didn't mean it that way. I was just saying that you were now a part of the show.
DeleteAnd no, you don't have to be a VA on MLP for our time. You have experience, you have talent, and I believe you can teach people a lot of things.
Anyway, I'm very sorry for the misunderstanding, Gabe.
Gryph0n, you should probably ask your manager before speaking here. You may tarnish the name of your company with sour replies. If you don't have a PR person (Your manager?) Then PR yourself and realize anything you say will probably be taken in an ill light here on H-N.net.
DeleteGo sell your Skype time.
BlackGryph0n is a spastic teenage boy with a suspiciously receding hairline, who makes inappropriate sexual jokes around underage girls.
DeleteThose are a dime a dozen in this fandom, and thus his time is worth $0.
And I'll bet you'r just burning up over all the attention he is getting over this. "I'll never be known by so many people"...But wait, my boy, this is your CHANCE! Comment like mad! It's working he's replying to you now! WOW! You did it! You accomplished your life's goal of being noticed. *Applause*
Delete100 bucks is too much for petty talk in only 30 minutes.
ReplyDeleteIf it was teaching, or whatever (like devoted lessons) not just a "Hey, how was your day?" then yeah!
but im not gonna pay 100 dollars just to know how life has been treating her
100 bucks for 30 minutes is still pretty pricey tho...
It can be for a lesson if that's what the caller wants. Read the description.
DeleteIt's $100 because it has to be split between 4 people.
TBH, I wouldn't pay it either, but people requested it and we obliged.
Who are these people you guys talk about... Your manager and family doesn't count. See if you changed that price and made it into a charity offering then I could believe you but no ...you have to do this...
DeleteDishonor your family , dishonor your cow and dishonor jailbait
There are a lot of fans besides those who post here and on /mlp. Lots of fans. Some of them want to see Gabe and Michelle, and some of those are willing to pay for it. I bet that the $100 cost was not plucked from thin air, but was chosen because it's both accessible and exclusive.
DeleteCall the whole thing odd if you want, but there's no reason to be all nasty about it just because you don't see the value. I'm sure everyone can cite examples of things that they see as expensive and useless, but still gets widely bought and used. Kardashian everything, for instance.
oh god this could be sooo bad.... a group could pool their money together get in a call and then read them both the most EUROTIC FAN FICTION.
ReplyDeletealso
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HAHAHA!! This has actually crossed our minds... ^^;
DeleteDont bother with them ,they are channers who just want materials to wank on Encyclopedia Dramatica because "muh drama".4chan/8Chan is the Damocles sword on the fandom that take pleasure on phagocyting every conversation,causing shit,lying about how they single handly created the fandom when in reality they were just a piece of the puzzles and use the little influence they have to overeact at anything "for teh lulz" and throwing a GamerGate tier tantrum when the spotlight is not on them. In other words,tell them to go fuck themselves and ignore those fuckin basement dweller nerds
Delete>Denying the truth so hard
DeleteHow's that butthurt of yours?
Don't you have some twitter blocking to do, Nash?
DeleteI can already picture it:
ReplyDelete>pay to talk to Creber
>this other dude who is also there for some elusive reason won't stop interrupting her
I guess whoever is willing to pay that much money for it doesn't deserve anything else.
Oh don't worry, she doesn't usually give me much of a chance to speak. XP
DeleteBlackGryph0n this is about more than just the Skype calls.
DeleteThe cacophony of voices raised up against you is because of the attitude you and the Creber Inc. have as a whole. The skype calls just made them finally feel brave enough to speak without repercussion.
This is the grievance list compiled from convention runners, performers and fans;
1. Showing up late to functions, soundchecks, and VIP meet and greets you're booked for.
2. Treating anyone who isn't "on your level" like trash:
2.1 Shifting around entire convention performances/lineups to suit the whims of your crew.
2.2 Insisting on selling merch/cds/autographs OUTSIDE of the dance venue and blatantly advertising "HEY COME OUTSIDE OF THE DANCEFLOOR TO GET CDS AND AUTOGRAPHS." You literally steal crowds away from whatever poor performer/DJ gets stuck on after you and don't see an issue with this. Generally bands sell merch inside the venue, not outside it.
3. Overrunning on panel times, soundcheck times and basically just saying "screw the next person, I'm more important" (again see point 2.2)
4. Straight up ignoring people you made professional commitments to work with on songs/vocal work.
5. Strong-arming conventions/events/organizations to fire anyone who dares to question your business or professional decorum.
6. Expecting conventions/events/organizations to treat you as some sacred cow. Going beyond reasonable demands to accommodate a guest (Demanding first class flights, demanding flight inclusion to extended family members who are irrelevant to your attendance)
Please feel free to send this to Monique as she is part of the problem here too.
This comment has been removed by the author.
DeleteI can attest to the soundcheck part from buck.. it was awfull and caused the charity auction to be shortened dramatically.. not all items could be sold because the sound check was stalled and slowed down so much that the whole scheduele messed up at the end. This is not the words of buck management but this was me as a performer experiencing it first hand ^^
DeleteHowever Gabriel wasn't present at this one but still.
Sorry for the double post.. that is to say my performances are also not without their problems but I don't sell advice and I have a lot of gear and limited space.. there are a lot of factors there.. more technical on both hardware and software level which we all know: cannot be trusted at all times and the space for redundancy is not there. Anyway yeah my 5 cents here.
DeleteOne thing I gotta say you did a good job not brushing me off as a troll.. I don't mind you charging for trainings or whatever nor am I commanding you to do this... However I am criticising you and saying what you are doing is not wise and will likely hurt you in the long run even if you make some money off of this.
The "do whatever you want" "Just have some fun" are not words used by any professional.. yes industry professionals do offer trainings and advices.. just not that other aspect and there is a GOOD reason for why they don't. It's about knowing where you can squeeze money out of and where you really shouldn't which is what made me upset.
livejasmin.com is all I got to say.
ReplyDeleteYea I can see Michelle doing that ... Jailbait is jailbait
DeleteI like their music, don't get me wrong, but this? This is nuts. And what, is Gabe living with the Crebers now? I thought he was in the US Navy?
ReplyDeleteLooks to me like even Gabe is fucking ashamed of it. This is a disgrace, and the Crebers are just trying to rape the fandom that loves their daughter. The only way they'll get a price that ridiculous is if /mlp/ is in a trolling mood.
If it were me, I'd send them a pizza and watch the reaction. I think that'd be priceless enough to be worth the cost of the call, and it might teach the Crebers why offering an open ended service is a bad idea.
Gryphon left the Navy, like, a year ago or something.
DeleteDon't get me wrong I know $100 does seem like a lot, but like he said it isn't just him any more. Although I think it should be a little bit longer like at least 45 min because then you basically pay 2.25 (rounded up) per min and thats not bad at all especially if they are someone who you look up too. Though I know people are going to say that they should be honored to talk with their fans, who is to say they aren't honored. I know this might not make a lot of since but oh well I was getting tired of bronies (who's motto was love and tolerate) being so evil when it come to something like this. This is his life now, and like he said you are not getting pressured to buy this, it was something that was requested (by fans) and now they are making it a reality.
ReplyDeleteBasically they are justifying the price because of overhead, but really in the end to those that want it bad enough and are willing to pay the price is worth it, for everyone else it's a complete waste of money.
ReplyDeleteI don't thinks it's unreasonable to have those that want to participate, but are simply bemoaning the price-tag, like with a lot of services out there. This isn't meant to be for everyone, it's targeting those that want the service and can afford it, those that think the price should be lowered simply so it can be available to more people do not understand the concept of supply and demand.
Secondary to this whole thing, but does anyone else find it hilarious that the EFN crew took this as an excuse to get buttsprained?
ReplyDeleteIt's like they need the attention so badly, they have to make up being hated to play the victim, just so they can cry publicly about it.
sources?
DeleteThe butthurt about EFN survives, it's almost like you all have a chip on your shoulder and can't move on. Yet to see a better "service" spring up.
DeleteGo away Draft
DeleteI plan on buying this and doing an interview which I hope to publish here.
ReplyDeleteYou know why it's a drama ? Because shitty channers agent provocateur like Horse News and co are always on the hunt to start shit ! No one is twisting your arms to give them money but you need your audience and the satisfaction of "defending the consumers" when your main goal is churning shit to whine about on Encyclopedia Dramatica and 8Chan
ReplyDelete"So it's OK for everyone else to offer their professional services but not Gabe, even though he gets hundreds of requests?[...]There are credit card costs, webstore managers, etc. It's a business.It's up to the buyer how they want to spend the time. [...]Gabe & Mich get 100s of requests for Skype calls & simply can't accomodate"-Monique Creber
but i dont except a website that get shat out of 4Chan anus to understand how business works so....
If you REALLY want to know why it's causing drama, you should know it's nothing of what you said. Seriously, most of the people bitching them out on Twitter aren't just "channers", like you so reductively suppose. And it's hardly about complaining over them offering a service the complainers don't want.
DeleteIt's the same shit that gets famous LPers into drama. Basically people think these two are their friends.
The fandom eats up whatever they drop, and particularly love Gabe becuase he represents a bridge to the show. He was just a fan at one time, he was like the people who eagerly hang on him now. People thought they were like him, and thought he was like them. Seeing him an cons and shit made him appear accessable, and people thought they were his friend even though Gabe doesn't know them from a hole in the ground. There was an illusion there.
But now that he's charging for autographs and saying "my time is so valuable you need to pay to Skype with me", those same fans of his are hearing, "I'm better than you, unattainable, and you'd have to PAY ME to acknowledge you exist". So people who once had this unconscious impression he was their friend feel pretty put out, I'd imagine. And that's why they complain. To them it's not about a professional charging money for services, it's about a friend suddenly saying you're worthless.
Whatevs, though. Better they all learn he's NOT their friend, and that he doesn't give two shits about them. Once people learn that about all the show staff, they'll be a little less up tight.
It's surprising how many think, or have thought, show staff come to cons for fans and out of the kindness of their heart, even that's complete bull. These people come to cons to get paid, it's a job and they tolerate the fans because it's all part of the show.
DeleteWhat's funny is how cons are forced to bend over backwards to keep their "VIPs" happy, even though the cons are >the client paying to have them their. All for the privilege of paying them to maybe come back.
Frankly seeing someone who's still more well known for fanwork being paid to attend cons and charging for autographs even though they have little to do with the show and once more only is involved because of nepotism, just rubs me the wtong way. Every time I see BG listed as a guest at a con I want to call bullshit.
Are bronies really that much sheep, or is this con organizers playing politics? Maybe it's a little of both.
I imagine BG talks to his friends and doesn't charge them for the privilege!
DeleteThe problem as I see it is people deluding themselves into thinking they're best buddies because they once exchanged a few lines on a Skype chat or even just commented on one of his videos. This is perhaps a harsh reality check for them and I feel for them but, welcome to the real world. Admittedly sometimes it's a mental illness, there's a lot of that in the brony fandom, but either way it's a reality these people will have to face and learn from.
I hope all of those replying to blackgryph0n realize they're going bankrupt if they keep doing it.
ReplyDeleteAw crap! My wallet's as empty as it is when the OTHER Gabe empties my wallet through Steam sales!
DeleteCURSE YOU GAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAAABES!
PURPLE TRANNY
ReplyDeleteU
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A newcomer to the business who only turned pro through nepotism has no right giving lessons. Gryph0n is just exploiting gullible people, not offering a valuable services, let alone a $200/hr service.
ReplyDeleteHoly shit. There are highly trained lawyers and accountants with years of experience who charge less for their services.
^ this
DeleteGryph0n is exploiting them? More like Monique Creber is.
DeleteDrama Theme:
ReplyDeletehttps://soundcloud.com/kota-kye/thomas-needs-money
Nash's posts prove once again what an ass-kissing mangina he is. He's such a giant pussy, He should just throw on an apron and go make everyone at HN a sandwich.
ReplyDeleteBlackGryph0n this is about more than just the Skype calls.
ReplyDeleteThe cacophony of voices raised up against you is because of the attitude you and the Creber Inc. have as a whole. The skype calls just made them finally feel brave enough to speak without repercussion.
This is the grievance list compiled from convention runners, performers and fans;
1. Showing up late to functions, soundchecks, and VIP meet and greets you're booked for.
2. Treating anyone who isn't "on your level" like trash:
2.1 Shifting around entire convention performances/lineups to suit the whims of your crew.
2.2 Insisting on selling merch/cds/autographs OUTSIDE of the dance venue and blatantly advertising "HEY COME OUTSIDE OF THE DANCEFLOOR TO GET CDS AND AUTOGRAPHS." You literally steal crowds away from whatever poor performer/DJ gets stuck on after you and don't see an issue with this. Generally bands sell merch inside the venue, not outside it.
3. Overrunning on panel times, soundcheck times and basically just saying "screw the next person, I'm more important" (again see point 2.2)
4. Straight up ignoring people you made professional commitments to work with on songs/vocal work.
5. Strong-arming conventions/events/organizations to fire anyone who dares to question your business or professional decorum.
6. Expecting conventions/events/organizations to treat you as some sacred cow. Going beyond reasonable demands to accommodate a guest (Demanding first class flights, demanding flight inclusion to extended family members who are irrelevant to your attendance)
Ah, someone else who's had to work with these people. Seriously, some cons have avoiding booking them because it's not worth the cost and headaches involved with having them there. Michelle and BG are not even a big draw for attendees anymore.
DeleteWow.. Is that what people are saying? I knew people made stuff up, but I honestly didn't think they'd go THAT far.
DeleteOK, I'm very frustrated by this BS, but I'm going to do my best to calmly respond to these ridiculous accusations one by one:
1 - Punctuality is very important to us. I don't think we've ever showed up late to anything we've committed to do.
2 - We are kind to everyone. Even those we've never met before who think they know us personally and follow us around.
2.1 - We always work out the schedule before hand with convention staff and stick to it.
2.2 - Selling CD's after our performance is in our contract, and Conventions know this when they sign it. We always encourage people to go back and watch the next performer if there is one, buy we hope to have a slot where nobody comes after us. (Even when we haven't sold CD's in the past, people have left after our performance.)
3. Everyone overruns on panel times, that is up to the moderator. Soundchecks often take longer because we've had to put out fires caused by the people who often haven't had anything ready for ANYONE before we've showed up! We've even had to spend our money to rent gear so that there was a show at all.
4. I have never ignored a person I've made a professional commitment with, though I have had to postpone doing work I agreed to do for free because other professional commitments have come up. In the future, I won't take on free work.
5. We have NEVER suggested ANYONE be fired for ANY reason. This is total crap. Check your sources.
6. We have never flown first class, never asked for it, never asked for money for extended family members (they have visited on their own dime in the past) and have never asked to be treated any differently from any of the other guests.
The "Information" you have is a culmination of the angry rantings from a handful of people who have either wildly exaggerated things, or made up crap because their egos were hurt. I'm honestly getting so sick of this fandom's BS, I'm considering completely abandoning it. Fortunately, the arrogant, semi-successful pony-con staff who crap out rumors when they get their egos bruised only make up a small percentage of the other's we've dealt with. If all convention staff and con goers were this butt-hurt, we wouldn't accept any invites.
>I'm honestly getting so sick of this fandom's BS, I'm considering completely abandoning it
DeleteYou know as much as everyone else it'd be the end of your career.
Sadly gabriel while you were not there the scheduele problem did happen at the convention in the UK I was performing at as well causing the charity auction to not be on time.. stalled massively because of the heavy sound checks and causing not everything to be sold.. resulting in massively reduced profits for charity... it was not nice.. the con was still great but this could have easily be avoided.
DeleteFirst class flights... and hotels were demanded including family and grandparents to be flown over ... I was there I talked to them even!!! I was there at the soundcheck too! I was sitting at the top section of the stage with my graphics projector!
It was also not fun to see they were not eager to mingle with anyone but instead went off in a nice limousine across manchester :(
"I have never ignored a person I've made a professional commitment with"
DeleteSilva Hound says hi.
Also while they did watch some projections because I was so nice to draw something for michelle just before the sound tests *she is a nice kid really* they did not watch my performance I believe.. her (I believe) grandparents did though!
DeleteAlso not you but the whining after the convention to other VA's from the invitees involving creber (again you weren't there) caused this convention not to get any more show staff.. it was undeserved and very sad.
DeleteThat's not a professional commitment anon, that's called a favor. And I haven't abandoned it, I've had to postpone it due to ACTUAL professional commitments. You know, the paying kind.
DeleteYes LaserPon3, I know about the Buck situation.. When the Crebers showed up, the PA wasn't even there! They actually had to step in and organize EVERYTHING from the ground up, or the concert wouldn't have happened... For anybody. Problem is, when someone steps in to fix a problem that nobody knows about, they get blamed for causing it. Had the Crebers not been there, you wouldn't have had a show, but at least they wouldn't have gotten blamed. Maybe that would have been better.
DeleteOh, and I know the second part is crap because the grandparents were LIVING in Manchester! The grandparents drove out to watch them perform, then they all drove back to their their house for a visit after the con was over.
DeleteWe have never flown first class to any convention, and have never demanded rooms for any extra people.
Don't let the door hit you on the way out BH, I've worked many pony cons over the years, big and small, all over the US. Mayb5 you don't realize this, but a lot of the same people staff these cons and mentioning the Crebers is a good way to get a groan out of us.
DeleteNo one openingly says anything out of keeping appearance and some sense of professionalism, con heads especially have to play politics to keep things friendly. You can try and play the card people are exaggerating, or making stuff up, but you have a vested interested in keeping on the Creber's good side.
For those of us that have had to actually deal with the bs, we have nothing to lose or gain by exposing how problematic that family can be. You won't be terribly missed if you stop attenting cons.
Good to know the grandparents lived in manchester... was already surprised about them being flown over too when I was there.. They were nice grandparents. regarding the rooms well It makes sense they wouldn't get a room however first class flight was most certainly on the expenses list when I got to gaze over an excel printout that listed expenses... I know the cons finances are not my bussiness but I was there and a staff member was there and I got to look at it briefly. I remember there was something funky going on which is why it took so long.
DeleteHowever I was there the entire sound test.. had a direct view on the stage and the happenings including the sound tests... they took long... too too long....
I even know where I got to look at this.. it was upstairs on the place I projected during BUCK 2012 sitting there on a clipboard on the curved bar table.. My memory can be hazy (with things like peoples birthdays) but this memory is there very strongly because I wasn't very happy with it.. I don't charge for stuff and its ok too charge but the happenings felt... well.... kinda overdoing it.
DeleteRegarding the limo: I was walking at the side of the street with Tombstone and I believe cluttershy was there too.. We were close to our hotel talking in front of a the subway *which was next to our hotel when I saw michelle getting inside this white limousine.
DeleteI also never saw michelle or any of her family showing up in the guest room minus the extra guest room before their actual performance on the stage. Was a shame there were a lot of treats and I even brought a super nintendo which I hooked up to the TV for whoever felt like needing a time out.
Personally I don't like to stick around in guest rooms though I mean.. you go there for the crowd too.. so you want to spend time with them and be there for them. It's one part they are also paying for! Love the fans and they love you back in a way. Even /mlp/ is really fucking cool and I have never had problems with those guys. Although I gotta admit I laughed when they posted pictures of the me being really cringy in the Doc and I was genuinely laughing as well to see what /mlp/ was coming up with.. but that is a different story.
Sorry Gabe, as someone who works and runs pony cons I have to admit you do most of what you're being accused of. I've witnessed it first hand. You're inconsiderate to everyone around you. You personally don't bother with anyone who isn't "worth your time". You may not realize it because convention chairs have to play nice but you're a major grievance for many convention staffers. I hope that when you read all this you can take some personal growth or self awareness from it because people won't be doormats forever.
DeleteNo one's perfect, neither VIPs nor convention organisers. Can I suggest, rather than pointing fingers at each other, calmly raising and addressing these concerns with each other as they occur. Quietly compiling a list of grievances then unleashing it in a big rant when you're in a mood to tear someone to shreds is a form of passive-aggression and not all that constructive.
DeleteFrom what I've seen on Twitter, others such as Peter New have been questioning whether it's worth dealing with the fandom as well. For what it's worth, I think in the main most of the fandom is still pleasant, kind, loving and constructive. The problem of mud-slinging on the internet (esp. Twitter) is not unique to Bronies, it's a worldwide problem in recent years ever since shit like gamergate when it became fashionable.
I rarely come to HN as it's very much one of the biggest culprits for shit stirring, but sometimes I get curious to see what the bottom end of the internet is ranting about. Every time I come away thinking "wow is this what the fandom has become?!" and a bit sad, but then I go to different sites and conventions etc and am reminded that the vocal bile-spewers are not representative of much after all. If it's getting you down, I suggest hanging out in nicer places.
2.2: Then sell the merchandise IN THE VENUE. Every band or show I've been to the merch booth is where the music is playing, not outside it.
DeleteYou were late to Bronycan soundcheck. I heard sound engineers bitching about it over the ambient mic that happened to still be on during the Bronycan ore-livestream.
Hey again BG. So if you're going back and taking another look at the comments section I just wanted to let you and the other readers know that other brony musicians that perform at cons disliking you and finding you generally unprofessional has been a thing long before this $200 hourly rate thing happened. Some of them are very vocal about it, and the shy ones may speak up now that they may not receive backlash.
DeleteIn fact, with some of the various convention staff I stay in contact with, if anyone ever brings up you, Michelle, or your shared agent that's the first go to complaint they'll make. I'm assuming that's because it doesn't directly involve themselves and because of how public some of the musicians have been. Whenever they feel like continuing the conversation it goes on to too demanding. Too expensive. Too time consuming compared to other show staff. Ultimately not having a lot of pull ticket sales-wise.
I'm sure you want to know which cons are saying this and how high up it goes but... well, I'd like to keep those sources thank you very much. But hey, at the rate this is going they might not be afraid of going public about it themselves. Remember what I said earlier about whether this service was going to be worth the returns? Keep thinking about it. It's not just about the fans: it's the cons as well. You still have time to put out the fire. Please stop trying to put it out with gasoline.
Oh yes, the bronycan sound check! I remember that. We were called down and told they were ready for us, and when we arrived to find they had no monitors. Monique and Kyle had to go looking for some while Michelle and I waited (in the venue I might add) until everything was ACTUALLY ready. People were complaining because they somehow wanted us to start sound check without hearing ourselves...
DeleteAnd to you mister Ren, I say this is complete and total BS! Yes, some musicians have complained because when we step in and fix the mess caused by the ACTUAL unprofessional people often in charge of running the event, it takes time. Many concerts wouldn't even have started if we didn't take over and fix the things that were falling apart before we arrived. You would not BELIEVE the amount of amateurs who are put in charge because they know how to make beats in FLStudios and upload them to youtube. It's a bit of a reality check when they have to perform in person and realize they know nothing about actually running a concert. Fortunately, between me, Monique, and Michael, we have decades of experience gleaned from professional performances put on by experts in the industry as apposed to a bunch of youtubers at a pony convention, so we are often able to pull the proverbial plane up before it smacks into the ground, but people see the extra time we take to fix things for EVERYONE, and interpret our efforts to help as being greedy. Oh well, nature of the beast I guess. Fortunately, I know that many of the larger con organizers are actually aware of this.
"Too expensive. Too time consuming compared to other show staff. Ultimately not having a lot of pull ticket sales-wise." All lies. I know what the other show staff charge, and we are some of the cheapest. Arguable THE cheapest compared to what we do.
Time consuming? Well I would imagine so, we give the most of our time! We give EVERYTHING we have at conventions. We do as many panels as we can, AND we put on a concert! It's exhausting, but we do it because we actually CARE about the fandom (though I'm starting to wonder why)
Not a lot of pull? Well obviously the 8 conventions we attended this year didn't think so, and neither do all the cons who signed contracts with us for next year.
The only fires that exist are perpetuated and fanned by a couple dozen people like you. But they'll soon go out, because fortunately the people who actually matter don't believe the drama and BS stirred up by a few moping con staffers over Skype (who by the way are contractually obligated not do discuss those things with other cons. Wanna talk unprofessional? Prime example.)
Wow! So much accusation and misinformation in one conversation – it is disheartening but c’est la vie. The people who are vile speak for themselves and make their true colors apparent, but what is more concerning are those who write complete lies in a relatively articulate manner. To LaserPon3: I’ve read your assertions of what happened at BUCK and it’s astounding that every statement you’ve made about the event and our involvement is utter and complete fabrication. What’s also surprising is how easy it is to prove that your account is completely fictitious. I’m going to give you the benefit of the doubt and say that I can’t tell if your intent is purely malicious or if you actually naively believe the things you are saying. Either way, you are not really deserving of a response but for the sake of others who may read this, I feel the need to address a couple of things, in order to illustrate how ridiculous your statements are.
DeleteYou stated: “I can attest to the soundcheck part from buck.. it was awful and caused the charity auction to be shortened dramatically.. not all items could be sold because the sound check was stalled and slowed down so much that the whole scheduele messed up at the end.” I keep very good records and have an organized filing system. As such, I pulled out my BUCK 2013 file and have the program open in front of me right now. The charity auction was at 3:30 in the afternoon followed by a panel and then the concert in the evening. We were driven back to our hotel after we finished our afternoon commitments and our BUCK driver picked us up when they wanted to bring us back for sound check (which was to take place right before our performance). When we arrived, the auditorium was empty and NOTHING was prepared for the concert. The panel table was still on stage, the piano was not out and no concert microphones or fallback monitors were set up, let alone sound checked. We jumped in to try and help get everything going as it was clear that the evening was now going to be way behind schedule. IF the afternoon auction was cut short for any reason, it certainly had nothing to do with us. Our only regret for helping out is that some of the performers scheduled after us, got the impression that it was our sound check that made things late vs. the fact that nothing was actually set up for the sound check or concert.
You stated: “Regarding the limo: I was walking at the side of the street with Tombstone and I believe cluttershy was there too.. We were close to our hotel talking in front of a the subway *which was next to our hotel when I saw michelle getting inside this white limousine.” Hahaha! The car we were driven around in was certainly NOT a limo (white or any other color); it was in fact a tiny blue compact owned by the staff member who drove us.
You stated: “Demanding first class flights, demanding flight inclusion to extended family members who are irrelevant to your attendance” We don’t demand first class flights for ourselves let alone additional family members we may have with us! I keep boarding passes on file and just checked those flights. We sat in row 42 on AC854 on the way there and row 50 on AC855 on the way back. Anyone who is remotely familiar with air travel will know that you will never find First Class or even Business Class that far back in a plane.
You stated: “Strong-arming conventions/events/organizations to fire anyone who dares to question your business or professional decorum.” Yet another blatant lie.
They are all blatant lies and I have sent a message to BUCK regarding your accusations. In addition, I would like to speak to you privately. Please DM me and let me know a good time to chat?
What a professional momager we have here, wading into the Horse News comments to pick fights. Gosh, I can't imagine why multiple cons might find your team abrasive, bullying and a pain to work with!
DeleteThis is called self defense, moron. The people bullying are all the butt-hurt rumor mongers in the comment section.
Delete'“Strong-arming conventions/events/organizations to fire anyone who dares to question your business or professional decorum." Yet another blatant lie.'
DeleteNext even another sentence before:
'They are all blatant lies and I have sent a message to BUCK regarding your accusations.'
lmao
Also,
'Either way, you are not really deserving of a response'
'In addition, I would like to speak to you privately.'
Are you threatening me, Master Jedi?
"Fortunately, between me, Monique, and Michael, we have decades of experience gleaned from professional performances put on by experts in the industry"
DeleteWho Gabe?
Regarding cheapest show staff: that would be MA larson and many of the writers who are not very high up there but just really apreciate that people are sending them over. They also love to actually hang out and talk with their people and it's a big reason why MA larson is so apreciated. Peter new is another example of that.
Regarding Monique: My account is fictious? yes my username is as I'm not actually a horse with lasers in real life if that's what you are wondering.
I never stated that you tried or got someone fired I even stated: This I have never heard of or seen so you can't blame me for calling this.
The car most certainly wasn't blue and it was rather large for just your ordinairy car.. especially in a place like manchester.
Nevertheless privately is fine with me. This con happening really sticked with me as being not a nice sight when it was all happening which is why the memory is very very strongly there with me. Normally its a tradition for me to sell or contribute something to a charity auction and because of the huge delay even my contribution I have no idea what ever happened to it.
Regarding the Sound test: Maybe things went a lot different but as I was there It looked a lot different to the eye.
Regarding the Malicious : No the intent was not malicious although it's easy to pass it up as "slander?"
The reason I brought the whole selling up was NOT because I have an issue with Gabe or michelle nor you and your husband making money (neither the amount).. you guys need to eat too.. but "A fun chat" and "Do whatever you want" really don't seem to mix with professionalism to me... I was putting out a warning that this might have a negative impact on the views people might have of you.
Doesn't it sound awkward to be "paid" to listen or give feedback to someones track? After all feedback can be devastating if it's negative and I don't see people jumping up to be teared to shreds with the feedback.
Fans have been known to shell out a lot of money for just about anything... heck some might even ask for it..but there is a limit of things you should try to moneytize and the regular talk being one of them.. It just leaves a sour taste in my mouth and with many others.
Yes people give trainings and advice and counseling there is nothing wrong with this.. although some may have a career devoted to it.. but your expertise of that is not my bussiness to judge. I even said why not change the text or split up the services and charge accordingly..I do not see people however offer the "just a fun talk" alongside these other services in one combo.. I'm pretty sure there is a good reason for it.
Nevertheless if you still want to contact me privately: I"m reachable through twitter DM as I just followed you.
I just want to ask a very simple question to anyone that has worked on a con before, are there anymore VA's that actually give headaches?, just curious
ReplyDeleteActually cons in general do.. the thing is while preparation can be done for to an extend.. when it comes to doing every physical setup it all needs to happen quick with few days/hours to spare. It's common in the majority of conventions but it "usually' happens in the background but it still affects and sometimes if not often it will show up.. the more you want to do the more that goes wrong. The more sophisticated: The more that goes wrong. This is why some VA's just say "I will do this and then I will go away". In general its not that bad.. Just demanding at worst.
DeleteMost con going VAs are pretty easy to work with.
DeleteThats right
Deleteok, thanks for answering, after this scandal it just popped into my head if anyone else was a pain in the ass to work with
DeleteSome can be downright divas.
DeleteThe drama is simply divine.
ReplyDeleteit's beautiful how this just collapses on the inside
DeleteAs beautiful as glistening dew drops on a week old dog turd, sparkling in the morning sun! <3
DeleteNo, I'm not. I give my time to whoever I can, whenever I can. I'm kind to everyone, and most people I've met have said that about me. You can't convince me I'm not, I know this about myself. That said, I also know that I meet thousands of people and I likely don't leave a positive impression on all of them.
ReplyDeleteOn that note, may I ask who you are? Have we met? If so, where, what con, and what did I do to you personally that made you feel this way? I'd love to know.
Pretty sure it's not you for the most that they are expressing their dislike for gabe but the crebers. Not all of this stuff is in your hands directly by the looks of it. But manager or not.. when it involves you since you prepresent yourself and everything asociated you should act responsible even if you didn't actually do it. On topic: The delay problems etc do not really seem to be your issue nor should you try to involve yourself in it.
DeleteYou weren't there: So be it thats fine but the other problem If I were you since you are being offered along with it is where your priorities should be.
I do think you should offer the service but as I said many times including yesterday: Don't do it this way.
I will stop bothering and mentioning it now beause I'm getting a bit tired of it and the days before christmas and NYE are actually some really buzy work days for me.. Contracts.
Regarding Silva hound: Kinda get what is going on.. I have had this.. the apology is most certainly in place.. however if you are telling to work with someone and you have a deadline/work contract.. hit someone up before or as soon as you can when this happens privately to inform him or her so he or she can plan in his time differently without having to waste time trying to poke or bug you and also being incapable himself to scheduele.
Anyway peace I'm out.
I actually did tell him I was busy, and also that I was sick. I have been communicating, just not daily. As I said before, there are a lot of assumptions going around, and until people have all the information and an innate understanding of the situation (and preferably a good reason to be directly involved) they should not be speaking out publicly on the matter because frankly, it's none of their business. That's MY 5 cents.
DeleteNo, Gabe. The reason a bunch of people are telling you this is a bad idea is because it's a bad fucking idea. You ever heard the slang phrase, "Man, I wouldn't do that shit if I were you."?
DeleteWell, this is that shit. I mean look at this. You've got Monique up in the comments saying,
>You stated: “Strong-arming conventions/events/organizations to fire anyone who dares to question your business or professional decorum.” Yet another blatant lie.
>They are all blatant lies and I have sent a message to BUCK regarding your accusations.
How the fuck is that not fucking strong-arming?
>"We the Crebers would never strong arm anyone, or try to get them barred from cons."
>"How dare you speak out against me on a comments section of a fan news site, I'm calling BUCK to have you barred!"
Jesus fuck dude, did the Navy not teach you a single goddamned thing of self-respect? As one former military guy to another, you are being "that guy," - you know the one, the one that all the NCOs tell their junior enlisted to not be like, because he acts like an ass. You want to be professional? Go for it, buddy. But I'm telling you, if you even bother to read it (and not charge me for it too), your manager is nothing but trouble.
I think it just got to him. I wasn't there... So you gotta talk to him.. possibly privately because we all see it and the suddenly public voicing of that is.. well weird
DeleteNo man, you don't know me. Who I am isn't important. What's important is that you step away to self-reflect. Saying all these people are liars, that's just unfair to the hard working and knowledgable staff that you inconvenienced. I had hoped you would see though all the shit-slinging and realize that maybe you haven't been as kind and honest to everyone as you claim to be. You said the people who matter know the truth. Gabe, believe it or not some of us anons do matter to the community at large. Be careful where you start slinging mud.
DeleteI'm sure their are others like me keeping anon because I would like to continue working cons. We are not ignorant to how this works, you say one wrong thing around someone with pull and up get tossed under the bus. Monique has already threatened to try and get people posting on her banned.
DeleteWhat bothers some people more is that Gabriel has been involved with inappropriate comments about Michelle publicly on Twitter when she was just fifteen. He's in his mid-twenties and she's a minor, you have to realize that it crosses the line.
ReplyDeleteProof: http://kick-neckbeard-ass.tumblr.com/post/105985831099/ask-a-brony-dating-expert-kick-neckbeard-ass
Eh, it's humour. Extremely edgy humour, but there's a difference between that and actually grooming underage girls.
DeleteI'm sure Gabe is probably well aware of how it can appear to others to hang out with kids, and joking about the situation (although it can be seen as distasteful) is one way to acknowledge that and lighten the mood without being excessively defensive. To be fair he is open about it and has the blessing of her parents.
Oh my word, for the last time that was not a sexual comment!
DeleteWe had just finished a Christmas concert together (the entire Creber AND Brown families) and we were cleaning up after the show. Michelle put a piece of duct-tape over her mouth, and both families started joking about how it could ACTUALLY be a silent night now because she usually talks so much. Monique thought it was so funny that she suggested we take a picture and tweet about it, so I did, and we all got a chuckle. If any of us had known how much people would miss-construe this one image, we never would have posted it. Honestly, my brain doesn't even function that way. It NEVER would have crossed my mind that the first thing people would think of when they looked at this picture was bondage.. I've had to do an unfortunate amount of research on the smut of the internet to understand the mindset of the sexually perverted masses in order to avoid making any more posts that would be twisted into something deviant. It's almost depressing that so many people are so twisted, they'll imagine sexual connotations in an innocent practical joke.
Did you forget the time you laughed at a pedophilia joke about two underaged girls who you hang out with, numbnuts? https://twitter.com/BlackGryph0n/status/534516130073673728
Delete"Yeah, joking about pedophilia/abusing children isn’t … joking, so much, it’s more like “betraying a massive level of inappropriate behavior around these underage girls”. It’s one thing to chuckle about creepy jokes in private, it’s a whole other thing to make that joke to the actual minors in question. It’s inappropriate, and as adults you’re supposed to know better. (Hint: it’s also misogynistic!)
It’s just creepy when Bronies (like you!) suggest threesomes between two minor children and an adult. It’s inappropriate and concerning when the adult who is their “friend” laughs along with the joke."
The adult in question is you, BlackGryph0n. You're creepy to the max.
What would you do if someone made an EXTREMELY inappropriate comment in response to a question asked by a 16 year old girl?! After that comment came in, Claire actually texted me a screencap to show me what someone had said and I was utterly blown away.. I was appalled that somebody would make a comment like that TO CALIRE!! What the HELL?!
DeleteI didn't know HOW to respond, but what I usually do in situations like that is try to minimize and laugh off the issue so the weaker parties involved won't be so traumatized. As the first born and a big brother to three, that's what I do.
Claire was disturbed by that! I had to convince her that it was just a joke and that this guy was somehow trying to be funny. I covered for this idiot, and now you guys are implying that I'M the one who made the joke?! Go get a psychiatric evaluation you twisted pervert.
"I covered for this idiot"
DeleteThere's where you fucked up. You don't "cover" for complete strangers making pedophillic jokes at the expense of your much younger female friends. What the fuck is wrong with you that you think "laughing and minimizing how bad it is so he feels safe to keep making these jokes because apparently BlackGryph0n the Horse Famous is okay with it" is the right course of action?
This bitch nailed you to the fucking wall for creep shaming.
You know what? You are right. In retrospect I probably should not have replied at all. TBH I was caught off guard by that comment, and since I knew Claire had seen it, I felt like I had to do something. Probably should have just talked to her about it privately and blocked the guy off the bat.
DeleteI also shouldn't let the opinions of people who don't know me, Claire, or Michelle affect me.
The problem is, when you're in a position where you end up working with these girls a lot, you are quickly made very aware of how some people perceive literally every little thing you do with them. Even if it was their idea, you're the one who gets the accusations and it's an unsettling and hurtful thing to be publicly accused of being a pedophile. No wonder Andy lost his cool!
What I need to TRY to remember is that the people who know me, don't think that about me. The only people who's opinions should matter are the people I personally know, and despite the crap Claire, Michelle and their parents read, they all know and trust me. That's all that should matter to me. Unfortunately, I'm kind of sensitive, and I care a bit too much about what other people think.
It's good that you recognize that your response to the creep was wrong, but then you go on to say that people make baseless claims against you. Can you understand how your response to him might give people the impression that you do harbor pedophillic tendencies? If your reaction to some jerkoff making sex jokes about children is "ha ha winky face", or you post inappropriate photos with duct taped mouths, it's not just jerks who think you might be a pedo, but normal people too.
DeleteYou're an adult man who is very closely affiliated with two very young women, and you have to understand that your actions (including tweets to actual pedos as seen above, and photos with a girl's mouth duct taped shut with a perverted grin on your face) will be looked at under a microscope. That's how it should be; children need to be protected, especially from the adults who voluntarily, for no clear reason, choose to place themselves so close to them.
The behavior you exhibit is potentially that of a perfectly normal adult man pursuing friendship. It's also equally potentially that of a pedophile grooming his next victim. Adult men do not usually pursue friendships with teen girls. Pedophiles do.
I don't think many people do think that tbh, mostly a vocal few. Bronies get accused of being pedophiles (or at least being "creepy", let's face it people mean the same thing, but some are more cautious about libel than others) constantly and there are a ton of people out there who trot out the line (pun unintentional) of "you're watching a show for little girls and hanging around Toys R Us looking at ponies? That's really creepy"
DeleteSad to see those actually within the fandom who have surely put up with these remarks themselves, inflicting them upon others. Most of us don't hang around with kids, I don't either, but there's nothing inherently wrong with that. Not every adult who dares to acknowledge the existence of a minor actually wants to be in their pants, and it's the attitude that they do that causes people to ignore children when they're lost or hurt etc since they're afraid that if they even think of helping out they'll be accused of something.
"It's just a vocal minority who accuse Bronies of being pedophiles, muh oppression! Brony shaming!"
DeleteDid you miss the part where this moron laughed at a pedophillic joke, or are you gonna hop off my dick and grow some reading comprehension?
Hey, Blackgryph0n I know you know this already but I think people on here are just jealous of you. You have done so much for the fandom, though I haven't meet you at any con's (mostly because I just joined not to long ago) you don't seem like someone who is cruel you seem kind and generous. I just want to say I'm sorry for all these people comments that are putting you down.
ReplyDeleteThanks very much. :-) I'm trying my best, but yeah. You can't please everyone.
Deletethank you all I see is rude comments
ReplyDeleteThank you very much for this. I found it very encouraging..
ReplyDeleteReally, thank you. :-)
Good eve all,
ReplyDeleteMy thoughts are this, he's not cramming it down our throats saying we have to do this, he's offering a service at a cost which most anyone in their chosen career path does. You want to goto a concert? depending on the artist that can cost you aa lot. Need a tutor, some cost money. You want piano lessons, name one teacher whos free. The point is, if anyone is interested in the offer, they will take it, if it proves that it's a fruitless endevour then well, lesson learned on all accounts. What does it matter, what rule is he breaking that says he can't try and make money off what he does in different ways, the whole world is built on a social economy, I say let the guy do what he wants. If it works it works, if not then so be it, no one is making you pay that price to talk to him. I certainly won't be paying it, of course i'm not hell bent on meeting any popular bronies either. All in all have a good night and let everyone choose their own paths, and stop being jealous that he can possibly do something you can't.
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ReplyDeleteLol I hope someone has a copy of what was said here.
DeleteWHY THE FUCK WOULD YOU RESPOND TO CHANNERS ? OR POST IN A WEBSITE INFESTED BY THEM FOR THAT MATTERS ? Are you guys not reading then news,once you angered those people,they never relent ,ever ! Never interact with anything that have a connection to channers unless your anon or else you'll get harassed
DeleteThis is the horse drama I've seen vaguely mentioned on twitter? Saw Nash talk about people "going after show staff," and I'm not sure what I was expecting, but it sure wasn't "Horse News mocks horse famous person over $100 skype calls."
ReplyDeleteBut hey, I guess anything to act smug toward the people who took the piss out of your pony media empire.
I honestly don't know which side to trust in terms of factual evidence concerning accusations of BlackGryph0n being generally self-centered; I haven't been at most cons (or any con, for that matter), nor do I keep up with the latest brony news, so I can't make the soundest of judgements here. Those against BG really do argue their points, and it seems a majority of people agree with these supposed facts. BG himself does a good job at explaining these things, although the arguments against his explanations also seem reasonable to an extent.
ReplyDeleteBasically, I can't verify shit.
I must admit some segments don't inspire the most of trust, though.
"I'm kind to everyone, and most people I've met have said that about me. You can't convince me I'm not, I know this about myself."
That's kinda pushing it a bit, imo. Sometimes those that are the most certain overlook things...
However, seeing how this entire comment section has practically become a pile-on of other shit simply trying to somehow prove what an ass BlackGryph0n is, I gotta admit this seems more like just a bunch of peeps lashing out because of jealousy.
It isn't doing wonders for the image of this community, gotta say. I can see why people would quit the fandom because of this stuff, it's tiring as crap when you're really not interested in having to endlessly argue your own point over and over again. It's not like many people change their minds in these things, anyways.
So yeh. 'Twas neat seeing Gabe on Horse News, or something.
Have fun~
Haha! This might be the most unbiased and logically sound post I've seen in this thread all day!
DeleteI respect this mate. Thanks for sharing your perspective. :-)
Ha ha! You are logical and smart and you are a man worthy of respect! Not just because you agree with me! :-)
DeleteCompared to the people who are making up blatant lies and claiming to know about things they didn't even see? Yes, he is.
DeleteIf it's of any consolation, Mr/Ms. Anon, I'm not really in favour of this Skype thing, either. Seems a bit extravagant, if you ask me.
DeleteIt's just, I'm tired of entire arguments erupting over the most trivial of things, and the attitude that people take in these things.
"That guy's a faggot and that's the only truth there is to the situation! MINE! It doesn't matter that I don't even know half the shit going on in this guy's situation, I just KNOW he's a huge-ass dick!"
So, BlackGryph0n made some weird moves. And? Just let him know of your opinion, that you consider it to be an act of smug superiority, and move on. There's no fucking need to create this whole god-damn scene. Seriously, the only thing that bringing up/making up all of this bad past because of one fucking skype offer is doing is strengthening the stereotype that most bronies are autistic little shits.
The issue here is that BlackGryph0n is purporting to be a professional in a field, but he is not acting like one. Nor is Monique Creber, the supposed "manager" who White Knights like she's on fucking Livejournal.
DeleteCharging money to chat with A) a D-list celebrity who is still a minor and B) a "fanboy gone good" is never going to go over well, especially when the price hits the triple digits. Neither of them have the years of experience that people are eager to tap into; it looks like what it is, a cheap money-grab for a couple of beginning artists and their momager, feeding on a borderline-disabled fandom that will pay any amount of money to be closer to their waifus.
The fact is, they have the right to be as greedy as they want. They can charge how ever much they want, they are the "talent" here and they set the rate. They cannot be expected to talk to any fan who requests their time, that's just ridiculous, and a waste of anyone's time much less a popular fandom figure. However, they (Gryph0n and Monique) can't then get up in arms every time someone with a bit of sense (or petty grievances) leaves an angry comment about it. Just like they have the right to demand $9000 for an hour of small talk, people have a right to laugh at their bad taste.
I'm not trying to imply that people don't have the right to complain; they need to, in fact, or else something that's wrong will never be fixed.
DeleteMy one problem with this, however, is simply the extent to which people take their complaints. Yes, there are legitimate concerns to express, but there also exists a line between being concerned and just going all-out bonkers, looking for nothing more than to tend to feelings of jealousy.
But ah, yes, my bad. What was I thinking? It's fun to complain about shit that you aren't even concerned with - I do that too, so I understand.
Well, best of luck to you, BlackGryph0n. Hopefully things are sorted out well.
And have fun, all of you against him.
Cheers~
My question is, why do the Crebers invite so many creepy adult men into their home with their underage child? Are we talking about literal pimping?
ReplyDeleteLooks like Mando's having the last laugh. https://twitter.com/TheRealSibsy/status/672272770181427200
ReplyDeleteI dun get it
DeleteEh, frankly, if you guys were seriously professionals, you'd let your work do the talk for you and let rumors be rumors instead of attempting damage control. I can imagine the only advice being asked when the service is purchased is over financing advice.
ReplyDeleteShut up, Cayci
ReplyDeleteSpeaking of Cayci, did you know that as soon as BlackGryph0n left the room at EQLA, Cayci called him a no-talent cunt with the personality of an aborted fetus and a forehead that could blind on a sunny day? Or was it everyone else calling her that? These big-foreheaded creeps with pedophillic tendencies all seem to run together in my memory.
ReplyDeletedamn i can smell this drama from a mile away!! ha ha
ReplyDeletedamn i can smell this drama from a mile away!! ha ha
ReplyDeleteWhen the poopie scoobies, the scoobie poops my friend.
DeleteA few people would have simply liked to hear that you guys would be more considered of less popular artist.
ReplyDeleteInstead, you called them "arrogant, semi-successful pony-con staff who crap out rumors." just now.
You kinda proved their point.
They know there time is soon over and now try to get many shekels as possible out of it.
ReplyDeleteOh wow this shit storm....
ReplyDeleteBlackGryph0n, I'd addressed it earlier before you replied so much more, and in larger chunks, with bigger and bigger rebuttals and corrections to other people's stories. So I'll reiterate, don't reply here. I even said to let your manager reply here too, though I saw Monique's post (I'm not sure if they're your direct manager, or a coworker and the manager has yet to weigh in, I don't know your relation to Monique, but even Monique shouldn't post here because their post came off as spiteful and venom-filled.
ReplyDeleteYou need to look through your company and find a PR person that speaks level-headed. A better option yet, would be to have someone contact Horse-News and offer answers and let them hear it/read it, review it, sit on it a bit, re-read it, then post it. I'm old school, pen and paper send-a-letter type guy. The rule of thumb is if you're angry,and want to say something, write that letter, set it down for 24 hours, re-read it and if you still feel that way in 24 hours, send it.
The internet and the immediacy of today's social media fuels that unrequited need to defend the honour of yourself, the Crebers, your fans, the cons you work for, and whomever else you feel you're really doing this for. You should be really employing a time-out for replies before you whip off huge paragraphs and hitting submit.
Keep your chin up, though. This isn't an attack, just heavily weighted advice. I'd not want to see more burnout in the fandom. Nor anyone thrown to any Timber-wolves. Take care, Gryph0n.
Ok, i'm going to agree that paying $100 for a skype call is BS that's not a justifialble price for 30 minutes, but what i'm not going to agree is kicking gabe in the balls for doing it, before continuing i have to say that i haven't met gabe or michelle or the crebers in person or online in my life so i think i can say that i'm not biased.
ReplyDeleteGuys, please stop blaming this 100% on gabe or the crebers, yes it's true that they can spout BS and yes they have part of the blame, but guys, you don't have to insult them for everything that they have done, i can believe if they didn't come for soundcheck, and the comment about youtubers was in poor taste, but please, you can hate him all you want, just don't go all the way to say that he's a pedophille or that monique is white-knighting him (even though i agree to that), you can hate him but not trying to destroy his life.
I don't think the word "sellout" is being used properly here.
ReplyDeleteA sellout is NOT just some person that monetizes something. The word you're thinking of when you ask if someone is one is "CAPITALIST" (someone who monetizes a product or skill set)
A Sellout is someone who compromises his or her personal values, integrity, talent, or the like, for money or personal advancement.
Example: Lets say I hate porn. Lets say I hate it to hell and avoid it whenever I can. Now, lets say I want/need some money and decide to make and sell porn because I think those who enjoy it will make me the most money. This would make me a sellout.
Have these two ever claimed to be against selling autographs? Have they claimed to hate shallow, big headed internet celebs, that kiss their own asses and do things like make you pay just to talk to them?
If the answer is 'no' then these two are aren't exactly sellouts. They're capitalists more or less.
Sellout has several definitions so I could be wrong. This was just a thought.
I don't think the word "sellout" is being used properly here.
ReplyDeleteA sellout is NOT just some person that monetizes something. The word you're thinking of when you ask if someone is one is "CAPITALIST" (someone who monetizes a product or skill set)
A Sellout is someone who compromises his or her personal values, integrity, talent, or the like, for money or personal advancement.
Example: Lets say I hate porn. Lets say I hate it to hell and avoid it whenever I can. Now, lets say I want/need some money and decide to make and sell porn because I think those who enjoy it will make me the most money. This would make me a sellout.
Have these two ever claimed to be against selling autographs? Have they claimed to hate shallow, big headed internet celebs, that kiss their own asses and do things like make you pay just to talk to them?
If the answer is 'no' then these two are aren't exactly sellouts. They're capitalists more or less.
Sellout has several definitions so I could be wrong. This was just a thought.
If BG spent the time wasted on public media actually making music, he would be really good by now, but that's how you spot a shit musician from a real one: one is about PR and muh reputation, the other about his/her passion.
ReplyDeleteNot to mention the fact that he's not even the talented one ... his brother is
DeleteWow, we're only a few days into the Hiatus. The ride continues.
ReplyDeleteI highly doubt she said that at all. Having known Cayci she is one of the kindest people.
ReplyDeleteThen you haven't heard Cayci shit talk.
ReplyDeleteHave you met that bitch? She stole her boyfriend from one of her friends for starters. Just ask ElieMonte how her long-distance relationship turned out.
ReplyDeleteNothing but Crook's, but if the Manager is behind all this, then he is a bigger freakin' Crook then these guys!
ReplyDeletePony Tonite sent me here.
ReplyDeleteTheir website needs an 'about' section. Badly.
Personally, it's not worth US $100 for me to yap with them, but other people might see it as cheap.
At the end of the day, VA's and musicians gotta eat too. No-one has to buy their service, so why shit on them for making the service available?
Other than being jealous because you can advertise a 1/2 hour Skype call for 20 cents and get no takers.
It's the principal of the thing though. Hell charge for your devices but what BG is doing here is taking the piss.
Delete*services
DeleteSo if these 2 are whoring themselves like this are they now technically media prostitutes?
ReplyDeleteFor $100 I'd expect her to be a literal whore, bitch better be flashing them pancake tiddies for the whole half hour.
DeleteI'd laugh my ass off if that site got DDOS'd!
ReplyDeleteJust want to throw a statement here: being horse-famous in the fandom doesn't translate into general success in life, so for all the "celebrity" stardom and high profile status really don't mean much out there 'in the real world'.
ReplyDeleteOh but so many have tried and the egos some of gotten from the moderate success they have found in this fandom is disgusting. Big horses in a small pasture.
DeleteBLACKGRYPH0N, GET YO NAVY PEDOPHILE ASS OUTTA HERE!
ReplyDeleteDude... seriously? You would actually be surprised at how many shippers there are. I myself am one. Legal age in Canada is 16 incase you are wondering. But even though that is true some people may still find it kind of weird. So we all wait until she is 18 which will be in 2 years. It's not uncommon that there are large age gaps in relationships. My parents are 9 years apart. Gabe is long since done with the navy. Also the whole $100 price was set by their manager, Not them. There are people out there who just don't listen to his side of the story and just rush into stupidity. I have been a fan of Gabe and Michelle for years. Gabe and I sometimes chat on Google Plus and Twitter. Now that I think about it how well do you even know them? Probably not much since you sound like a crazy hater who can't be reasoned with. By the way you do realize that Horse news and MOST of the commenters are full of shit right? Just like Reddit is?
DeleteThank you pedo apologist.
DeleteLet me guess your one of those guys who called MandoPony a pedo back in the day as well right? If that's the case then I shouldn't be surprised.
DeleteDunno which is creepier, that you're "shipping" real life people or that it's fucking pedophilia and you have no problem with it. Bronies are pedos, confirmed.
DeleteProbably another tumblrite, they do not seem to see the issue with adults touching children. What do you expect from a bunch of autists.
DeleteA lot of people ship real people and I fucking said when she comes of age in two years then they could possibly start dating. Also you assume everyone are pedos and you also had the nerve to poke fun at people with disabilities? BURN IN HELL ASSHOLE!
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DeleteAutism in general isn't a disability dumbfuck, it is simply a neurological disorder. Some disorders can be considered disabilities on the autism spectrum, based on their level of severity.
DeleteBy the way, totally not creepy talking about the possibilities of this young girl turning 18 that this fandom has known since she was 11. You have something very wrong with your brain.
You know what I never realized just how friendly the youtube comment section was until I came to this giant cesspool. You Are Fucking Impossible to talk to.
DeleteNot the same anon as before, but consider this food for thought: Even if Mich and Gabe do end up together, it will never be anything but creepy, simply because he's been living with her since she was 13 years old.
DeleteThere's no way to genuinely believe he hasn't been grooming her. Even if she thinks she wants to be in a relationship with him, who can tell if its the truth? It's very likely she's being manipulated, not only by that grown-ass man which has been living in her house for 3 years, but also her parents whom probably approve of the relationship just because they think it will further her career.
In the end, Michelle is a child and is the one being hurt by all this. There's no way a relationship between her and Gabe could ever be perceived as normal.
I still shouldn't have come here. I should have just stayed talking to the fans in the youtube comment section. Everyone is happy there. Don't get me wrong though, I respect your opinion. But just... agh haters everywhere!
DeleteOpinions different than mine! Such haters! My fragile little mind can't handle diversity of thought!
DeleteSo many people bash on Gabe. A lot of people don't want to listen to his side of the story. And it's their manager that is charging $100. Not Gabe or Michelle. And the other drama that happened recently... Gabe was talking about the whole dissing on the musicians but he only meant it towards the people who were making up stories about him. You know what fuck it. I'm just going to be his online lawyer and show evidence and prove that he is a really great guy.
ReplyDeletePeople are listening, they just know his side is bias and self-serving trying to save his image while everyone else knows what really goes on behind the scenes at cons. It is not that either side is lying, but have a different perspective on events. The thing to consider is you have one person giving their perspective versions a dozen or so others saying there is more to it and he is just trying to brush it all aside.
DeleteHorse News and the haters in here are so full of shit sometimes. Do they even hear him out or do they just accuse him of everything without thinking. TRY LISTENING TO REASON FOR ONCE!
ReplyDeleteI think it's hilarious that you are taking this website so seriously
Deleteit's just delicious
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DeleteI take a lot of shit seriously.
DeleteHorse shit is some serious shit.
DeleteGabe, go save us from ISIS
Delete>People that think calling other "haters" is all that is needed to discredit their arguments.
ReplyDeleteThis comment has been removed by the author.
ReplyDeleteI'm surprised Michelle herself hasn't said anything yet. I can totally picture her just shouting at all the haters and telling them to back the fuck off of Gabe and giving a long essay about this whole mess.
ReplyDeleteI cam get a hour with a prostitute for $100
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ReplyDeleteGod this is hilarious, But... Gabe.. Come on man $100 for a fucking 30 min skype call??? Thats just insane. What if your fans just want to talk and not get any private lessons done at all? Are you not going to put that into consideration? ALSO its for your own income... lol, its basically the equivalent if somebody spotted you on the street and said "holy shit its Blackgryph0n!" Then you give them the hand and straight up said pay $100 to talk to me.. :/
ReplyDeleteAt least when I give money to talk to politicians, I get a tax deductible receipt...can you do that for me?
DeletehhhHAHAHHAAHHHAhhahahah HHAHAHAHAHHAHA If you don't plan on buying it why are you freaking out about it? I guess it's for all the people that are being forced to buy it huh? ):
DeleteOh.... wait.... that's not happening is it?
Anyway. If you're doing it because you're trying to "Take BlackGrypon" down. Um...Do you know what the entertainment industry is? ANY attention (even negative) IS ATTENTION nonetheless. *Cough* *cough* Miley Cyrus... Sure half of her fans hate her, but hey it's paying the bills.
Maybe you're doing it for your own special attention. WELL LOOOK 8D It's working!
Well done.
I'm sooo jealous of you. Just like you're jealous of Gryphon and every celebrity that gets more attention than you.
No matter what though... the more you comment the more attention is given to Gabe. Careful you might make him even more well-known. Yikes.
(I'm so scared of you please don't comment back I'm so super duper scared)
The 200th comment is a request and shout out to this song:
ReplyDeletehttps://www.youtube.com/watch?v=6LWmkLO4hJI
And the 201st comment is this.
ReplyDeleteBLACKGRYPH0N, GET YO NAVY PEDOPHILE ASS OUTTA HERE!
BLACKGRYPH0N GET YO NAVY PEDOPHILE ASS OUTTA HERE.
ReplyDelete